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Indian Lit Messageboard>
Excellent recent Sherman Alexie interview
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May 10, 2003
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From the New Yorker website.
Issue of 2003-04-21 and 28
Sherman Alexie's story "What You Pawn I Will Redeem" appears this week in the magazine and here online (see Fiction). Alexie has written several novels and the screenplays for the films "Smoke Signals" and last year's "The Business of Fancydancing," the latter of which he also directed. His new collection of short stories, "Ten Little Indians," will be published this June by Grove Press. Alexie spoke with The New Yorker's Matt Dellinger about his Native American heritage, the challenges of filmmaking, and the dangers of tribalism.
MATT DELLINGER: The main object in your story, the pawned item, is the powwow-dance regalia of the narrator's grandmother. The narrator spends twenty-four hours trying to raise the money to buy it back. The powwow dance is also at the center of the movie you wrote and directed, "The Business of Fancydancing." Tell me about the significance of Native American dancing, and of the regalia.
SHERMAN ALEXIE: Well, I think most people would recognize powwow dancing, Indian dancing, in a generic sort of way. But I don't think they necessarily think about its cultural or religious or spiritual applications. And the power any particular outfit would have, and its meanings, the way the colors of a powwow outfit can reflect the family's philosophies and history, much the same way a coat of arms can in other cultures. Fancydancing is a pretty modern interpretation. In the years immediately following the Second World War, veterans came back and needed a new way to express themselves, so fancydancing came to the forefront in Oklahoma and in the Midwest back then, and it was really just sort of a contemporary reinterpretation of traditional powwow dancing. Also, in the twentieth century Indian tribes were becoming more assimilated. Fancydancing became an amalgamation of cultural influences, tribal influences.
Are dances passed down through families?
Well, there's a difference between powwow dancing and tribal dancing. Tribe ceremonies are very private, and are passed down from person to person very specifically. Powwow dancing is much more pan-Indian, much more public, so there are still some sacred elements to it, but it's also much more commercial, much more entertainment driven as well. It's a combination of things.
Would the regalia have been used in one or the other?
In both. Both in a sacred and in a public way.
The narrator's relationship to his culture in this story is sort of tenuous but strong at the same time. . . .
A distant love affair, yeah.
And the way he carries out his quest for the money is both very sincere and haphazard.
Oh, I think it's completely sincere. And utterly random and misguided and romantic and stupid and alcoholic. This story is also, in some sense, I think, a response to my work in Hollywood, where the heroic quest—every movie has to be about a heroic quest—is always so pure. Hollywood is all about purity. And, in a time of war, everything is stark contrasts: this side is pure, and that side is pure. So I guess I wanted a very ordinary protagonist, an ordinary hero, and that was what was interesting to me in writing this—the idea about some stumblebum trying to do something amazing.
Are you trying to convey anything about the Indian condition in general?
The first thought in my head is, well, yeah, we are stumblebums trying to do something amazing. Last night, I was reading Richard Rodriguez's "Brown," and he was talking about Indians, and the language—the fundamentalism and essentialism—and fake and real purity of Indians, and how even today we remain unassimilable. In some sense, this guy just refuses to belong.
I don't think anyone would say that you romanticize Indian culture.
No. That would be the worst thing I could ever be accused of. You know, because as Indians we've been so stereotyped and maligned and oppressed and abused, in acts and deed, in action and word, we seek literature that cheers us in some way, that acts as some sort of antidote, rather than an examination of us, and an interrogation of us. I mean, Indians don't necessarily want to be interrogated by our own art, we want to be cheered. I think a lot of Indians want Indian artists to be cultural cheerleaders rather than cultural investigators. I'll leave it up to mainstream journalists to do that. It's much the same way that this country right now wants our artists and our journalists to be cheerleaders. And in terms of our American identity I think mainstream journalists are.
Do you think that being investigative ultimately helps in some way?
Well, I think the worst part about tribalism is its tendency to fundamentalize, and if I can fight fundamentalism in any of its forms I'm happy.
You wrote a column recently in the Stranger that talked about the antiwar movement, which you're involved in, and about the irony you saw in America's freedom fighting. You quoted Hugo of St. Victor.
Yes, about the perfect man. "The tender soul has fixed his love on one spot in the world; the strong man has extended his love to all places; the perfect man has extinguished his." The idea of being countryless and tribeless is the ideal. And, in my pessimistic, cynical way, I took it to mean that you always have to be interrogating—everything you believe, yourself, all of your backgrounds, every tribe you belong to officially or unofficially. In this particular instance, I'm just as interested in the fate of the Iraqis as I am in the Americans'.
Do you participate in powwows at all?
No. You know, in some sense, early on I was tribeless, or at least pushing toward a tribeless sense, and this morning I was talking to my wife—she's Hidatsa Indian—after reading an op-ed in the New Mexico paper, and I said, "Well, tribal influence—my tribe is just one influence, and probably not the largest one now." I mean, liberals get accused more than conservatives of being focussed on identity politics, but there's nothing that screams identity politics more than calling somebody anti-American. So this war is all about identity politics.
The protagonist in your story, a homeless Indian, wanders around the city and meets homeless members of the Aleut tribe waiting on the bench for their boat, which never comes. Is their dedication to their tribe meant to feel sweet?
Ah. No, I think it's tender nostalgia, and also doomed. Nostalgia is always doomed and dooming.
Reservation Indians sometimes get stereotyped as self-defeating, in the way they live their lives and regarding the choices they make, and even, some people would say, in their adherence to their own culture.
Well, first of all, I would argue that reservation Indians are much more assimilated into American society than people would assume, or believe, depending on the reservation. A majority are very assimilated, and, aside from particular cultural things and ceremonies, there's not a whole lot of cultural difference between poor white people and Indians. Indian culture is, by and large, pop culture. In other ways, I think it can be seen from the outside as self-defeating, and the end result might be self-defeating, but I think a lot of Indians view their separation and their refusal to belong as an open act of defiance. So, even as they might go down in flames, they're proud of themselves. They're cultural kamikazes in some sense. And I think the narrator of the story in some sense is a cultural kamikaze.
But he's ultimately rewarded for it.
He's still homeless. I mean, he's got the regalia, but what the hell is he going to do with it? It was interesting to me when I read the story again this morning—I'm always puzzled by myself. Like, what the hell does that mean? But the end, in my head, I saw it being filmed. And I thought, That's a huge triumph, him dancing in the streets with the outfit. But, as with any triumph in any movie, when it says "The End" you have to think, Well, what happened to them after that?
He may very well go and pawn it again.
Exactly. I thought the sequel to the story would be "What I Redeemed I'm Going to Pawn."
Who are your fans, mostly?
College-educated, middle-class white women is the largest group by far.
Why do you think that is?
I think they're the most educated, most curious, interesting group of people in the country. I think that white women are more apt to read laterally. So I think there's some strong identification for women, and their political and social positions, and minorities. I think that the political power of, let's say, the average Indian man and a white woman are pretty equal. Of course, the percentage of Indians in the crowd is always going to be larger than for other writers. Depending on the area, ten or twenty per cent will be Indians, but most of the rest will be white women.
You also do slam poetry. How does that audience differ?
It's still pretty much the same. The typical slam audience isn't necessarily my audience. When I participate in that sort of event, my book audience carries over. I think that, by and large, in the slam world book poets like me are probably viewed with more suspicion.
You don't have the street cred?
Right. I do horrible things like write in meter.
Did you find it difficult to write a screenplay from your own work?
Well, the difficulty in writing screenplays is not my approach to them, it's everybody else's interpretation of what a movie is supposed to be. In the literary world, creativity and originality are a plus. And then in the movie world everything gets crammed into formulas, even in the so-called independent world. If you look at the fifty or sixty independent movies that enjoyed mass release last year, you're still going to be looking at three-act structures. And happy endings.
Could you write a movie like that?
I've tried. I'm miserable at it. I script-doctor in Hollywood and I work on projects, and I think people hire me to read good screenplays they know are never going to make it. I rewrite them, or I originate them, and the projects never get made, and I always fail. Often the reason projects fail is that I bring something strange to them. And it's funny, because I love movies. All movies. I just have been unable to combine my literary sense and screenplay structure into a fully winning formula yet. And I don't know that I'll ever be able to.
In your writing, do you feel a responsibility to be a social commentator?
I was talking this morning with a writer friend, David James Duncan, about that, and about how we wish in some sense we could be alone in our studies working at our art. I mean, that's our natural tendency—to be hermits. But we keep getting called out. I don't volunteer.
You do write columns for newspapers.
Yes. I've just started that, and reluctantly. I'm really nervous about it. Certainly, I hope it's something I'll get better at, but it's not a strength right now. I've got moments. The Stranger asked me to write a couple of things, and as we were doing it I kept thinking that one of the reasons conservatives dominate media right now is that binary thinking plays well. Liberals are so damn nervous and so damn conflicted, and live in the gray, and that doesn't play well. So I'm going to try to see if I can be a binary liberal, to be as funny and combative and aggressive as the conservative writers are.
When you're writing fiction or films, how much do you consciously think about making a social comment?
I think it finds its way in, regardless. Often when I'm at my worst is when I'm consciously trying to make a statement.
What about other Indian writers?
There's Simon Ortiz. He does it in such a low-key way. I think Susan Power's "The Grass Dancer" was very subtle. She's Standing Rock Sioux.
What about white people writing about Indians? Have you read anything good?
I like Tom Spanbauer. "The Man Who Fell in Love with the Moon" is incredible. I think Craig Lesley's books are good. I like the mysteries by Dana Stabenow—the Kate Shugak mysteries. I think her politics end up being more about a woman's politics, which is great that another identity takes precedence, that it's a white woman writing about an Indian woman and that the woman part comes out stronger, so that the Indian politics sort of interweave, and the environmentalism sort of interweaves. I think the main character, Kate, would identify herself primarily as a woman, and her interactions are with a wide variety of people.
You made a point in one of your Stranger columns about the irony of Native Americans fighting in the Army. I've seen some powwows, and at them the honoring of veterans seems to almost eclipse everything else.
Everything else. Oh, God. Yeah. I hate it. My next book is all about that. It's called "Inventing My Grandfather." My grandfather died on Okinawa in the Second World War, and his wife died three months later, leaving my father and his sister orphans. So I was raised by a war orphan who joined the Army himself, between Korea and Vietnam. I was always stunned by that. The Museum of Tolerance, in Los Angeles, asked me to be part of a genealogy exhibit. The genealogist did much more research on my grandfather. I discovered that he was a war hero. He won nine medals. I ended up on "Oprah" in January promoting the exhibit. Oprah surprised the hell out of me and had this brigadier general come out and present me with the medals I thought were going to take years to get reissued. And there were actually twelve of them. So I was on TV, on a black woman's television show, an Indian getting twelve medals from a Special Forces brigadier general. It was bizarre. What a country. Great country. I'd had the idea of a book in mind before that, and since then, and in a time of war, I've been writing a lot of stuff. My father died a month ago. So the book is about all those connections—about war and warriors, and honoring war among Indians, and essentially how you go from grandfather war hero to grandson Commie pinko pacifist, in two uneasy steps.
So it's a personal history?
Yeah. It's about the idea of Native American violence and American violence. And the idea of man and men and manhood. And the way it works in the Indian world versus the rest of American culture. For Indians right now my general thought is that there is this huge inferiority complex: we desperately want to belong. And what better way to prove you belong than to go to war for this country? A volunteer army is staffed by poor people. So maybe the whole thing we've been talking about today—this idea of keeping distance and being unassimilable and all that—maybe that's all bullshit. I left the reservation. And I encourage everybody else to leave. My wife said this morning, "Nothing wrong with leaving the ghetto."
Do you feel you've snubbed your culture?
You know, I believe the American culture is so infused and so assimilated and so combined that all of us contribute to it. Being a part of it confirms all of us. And my entrance into the mainstream has changed the mainstream—forgive the immodesty—but I think my career has totally altered many people's ideas of what an Indian can do and can be. Especially other Indians.
Do you mean the pure facts of your success? Not the work itself?
Yeah. Not the work itself. My success, my cultural power, my influence.
Do you do readings and things on reservations? Visit schools?
Yeah. And, you know, the next generation—there's going to be nine of me. That's what you hope.
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